[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to All Cats Considered, a new podcast from the American Association of Feline Practitioners, where we interview professionals from across the veterinary world and take deep dives into the latest evidence based research, development studies, and guidelines that improve feline health and well being. My name is Dr. Kira of Ramdis, president of the AAFP, and I'm proud to introduce this new podcast. We are the home for veterinary professionals seeking to improve the care of cats through high standards of practice, continuing education, and evidence based medicine. In each podcast, you will hear interviews from a variety of experts throughout our field, covering a wide range of topics and recent developments in the practice of feline health, sharing the key points you need to know to improve your patient's care. Let's dive in and take a listen with this week's experts.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Hello, everyone. I'm Dr kelly St Denis, past president of the American Association of Feline Practitioners and co editor of the Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery and Jfmsor. Welcome to our podcast. I am very happy today to welcome the first author of our recent publication, breathe Easy inhalational Therapy for Feline Inflammatory Airway Disease by DRS. Barchalon and Carol Renaro. Welcome, Dr. Barchalon.
[00:01:29] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: We're super excited to have you here. We're really enjoying reading this article. It really promises to be helpful to our members, especially people in general practice who are looking to get better success with more targeted therapy for their patients with lower inflammatory airway disease. But before we get looking into the article, I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about yourself.
[00:01:52] Speaker C: Well, let's see, where do I start?
I went to vet school at Midwestern. I was the first class to graduate, which was scary.
I did internship at LSU. I did residency at Iowa State, and then I'm here at Mizzou. I've been here for about a year. My main interest is probably hematology, so like IMHA or ITP or whatnot.
I've worked heavily with Dr. Ronaro and then one of the other faculty, Dr. Vientos Plots, with respiratory disease. They have what's called the Breathe Clinic here, which focuses on aerodigestive disorders, which has been fantastic for our patients. I have a cat named Taco, an orange tabby, who's the love of my life.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Well, I was definitely interested in hearing about Tacos. I confess. I did try to do some research about you online, and you had a very interesting background. Looking at your original studies, were not in veterinary medicine at all. And then it also mentioned that you had a cat named Taco.
What took you from your global studies, which is what you did your undergrad in, I believe, to veterinary medicine?
[00:03:03] Speaker C: Sure. At Arizona State University, I got my bachelor's in Global Studies, and then I planned to do law school, which I did go to law school for a couple of months and hated it. And so I dropped out of law school. I went to law school because I really wanted to help people, and I felt like law school was about arguing the law, not about arguing what was right. And so I was a little bit disillusioned with that.
And so I dropped out. This was back in 2011, maybe, right?
I did my own thing for a year. I worked at an Italian restaurant. I worked at Poles.
And then my significant other, who I was with at the time, her mom, said, what do you want to do with your life? And I said, I had no idea. And she said, you really like animals. So that was true. I did like animals. I had zero science background, so I thought what I wanted to do was be an animal trainer, right. And then I was going to apply to Applebee's, which was about because I wanted more money and I drove a mile too far, and there was a vet clinic that was hiring, and I said, I like this sounds cool.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:04:25] Speaker C: So I started at the vet clinic as a receptionist, and then I worked up my way from receptionist to assistant, and then I did tech school for a little bit. I dropped out of tech school because I knew I wanted to be a vet at that point. This was good. Two years later or whatever.
So that's my history.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: That is like, serendipity at its finest, is it not? That's an amazing story. I'm glad that you shared that.
[00:04:51] Speaker C: My perspective on vet med is, I think, maybe a little bit different than other people or I guess my communication with owners, because I remember being the kind of person that couldn't tell the difference between tramadol rimidol because they sounded the same to me. I had one owner call and she said, my cat is panting a lot, like open mouth breathing. What should I do? And I said, I'll put a message back for the doctor, and then he comes up like 30 minutes later. He's just irate at me.
This is not okay. This cat needs to be seen ASAP. And I just said, well, dogs do this, so it's not normal in cats. And apparently it wasn't normal in cats.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: That's an awful way to find out.
[00:05:34] Speaker C: Yeah. So I have a very deep appreciation for owners and communication because I was the kind of person that had no medical knowledge. And so when I talk to owners, I say X rays, I don't say radiographs, I say blood know, I don't say CBC, chem, or A. It's been an interesting journey, but being a vet is an amazing job. An amazing job. And I don't regret dropping out of law school one bit.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: I think that's also what makes us such a diverse profession, too, right. Because there's so many people with such different backgrounds. There's people like me who have known since I was five that this is what I wanted to do. Although I did not know I wanted to do cats only. And then there's people like you who drove a little too far down the road and found your calling.
[00:06:20] Speaker C: Pretty much, yeah. I didn't know I wanted to be a vet until I was like 25 or whatever it was.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: Well, that's inspirational too. My kids are in their early twenty s and they're still sometimes struggling. My daughter's a vet tech, but not sure if that's where she wants to stay. And it's always nice to hear stories like this too, because it helps younger people feel like they don't need to put so much pressure on themselves. Really.
[00:06:43] Speaker C: So that's cool. Yeah, definitely.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: So you got involved with some airway disease and decided to write this article with Dr. ReNero. And as I said earlier in the introduction, it's a really practical article. I really like it. And as someone who's in feli medicine only because we so often end up just using oral medication because people can't or won't pursue inhalation methods, it's really practical that way too. I see a lot of kind of interesting things happening in practice, which I bet you do, and even when you see referrals that things like chronic bronchitis are very rarely on people's radar in general practice, and probably a lot of people won't even understand what it is. And asthma is inflammatory airway disease to everybody. Is asthma nothing else. With regards to chronic bronchitis, what would you say about why it's important? What's the difference between asthma and chronic bronchitis? And what's so important about knowing why it's different?
[00:07:45] Speaker C: Sure, I think there's a couple of reasons. I think practically, probably the most important thing is that they don't tend to have airway collapse, which is one of the hallmarks of cats with asthma.
So they should be treated differently because they don't have airway collapse. And so I think that's probably the most practical difference.
I think one of the other important differences, which is maybe a little bit more like esoteric, is I think we really lack a lot of good solid information on these diseases. And so is it possible that asthmatics have a better prognosis or a worse prognosis than bronchitis patients?
I think? Do they respond better to prednisolone or fluticosone or whatever we're using in one case versus the other? And I think that there's a lot of unanswered questions.
I think potentially the most practical reason is to say is to note that bronchitis patients don't tend to have airway collapse. The other thing I think that's a little bit tangential, but I think is important is that if we diagnose a patient with asthma, asthma, one of the hallmarks of asthma is that they have eosinophilic airway disease. And if we can prove that, then we know that there are other things that cause eosinophilia, like heartworms, lungworms, et cetera. And so I think even just knowing that it's eosinophilic versus neutrophilic, which is typical of bronchitis patients, then we still can further pursue additional diagnostics to make sure the patient truly has asthma and not heartworm disease, for example.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: And you kind of actually have segue nicely into my next question, which is kind of another thing that happens in general practice a lot, even to specialists like myself, where people don't want to do the airway wash. And when I say people, I don't just mean the caregivers. A lot of us kind of have an unnatural fear of putting fluid down cats lungs and then sucking it back out.
I know you've just really explained why it's important for us to do that in terms of getting our differential diagnoses and making a proper diagnosis. Do you have any tips or tricks for practitioners about doing airway washes that would kind of take away some of that fear and make them feel more confident about recommending it to a caregiver?
[00:10:08] Speaker C: For example, there are many, many ways to approach an airway case.
I think that when we typically think of washes, we think of, like, bals, right? And a lot of people see these airway cases and say they need a CT, they need bronchoscopy. And so CT is not available to everyone. Bronchoscopy is not available to everyone. And so it sort of just defaults to, well, if I can't do all of those things, then I'll just try steroids or whatnot. And I think there are some easy middle ground approaches.
I think if you have bronchoscopy, it can be very helpful because you can go in and you can see the airways and notice, are they hyperreactive, are they hyperemic, are they whatever.
But even if you don't have bronchospy, you can use endotrachial washes, which are viable option, and anybody can do an endotracheal wash. You don't need a ton of training, typically.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: Pretty hairy sometimes, but that's usually what I do in practice.
[00:11:11] Speaker C: Yeah. And the thing that I think is really challenging about airway disease is that you're now anesthetizing A patient with airway disease. You're putting fluids in their lungs that can get dicey. I don't disagree at all. But I think some things to try and mitigate that are to try and use lower amounts of fluid for the wash. So things you can do, everybody has their different amounts, or mills per KIG or whatever that they use. But you can try and use less amounts of fluid to try and decrease the risk there. Obviously, the less fluid you use, the less fluid you get for analysis. And so there is that trade off. But I think you can use less fluid.
endotrachial washes are very easy, right? You just place an endotracheal tube fluid, there suction that takes, I don't know, five minutes.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:11] Speaker C: And so using less fluid and having less anesthesia time can decrease the risk of complications. Of course, you are more limited if you do that because you're not assessing certain airways. You're not getting fluid from this segment of the lung so it is not necessarily comparable, but is still a very, I think, easy option that I think anybody can do. Endotracheal washes, I feel like, are pretty easy.
You just need to do it a couple of times in order to feel comfortable.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: And then are there going to be times when we do something like an endotrachial wash and we don't get an answer back? Like we might not have a cellular sample and no answer? Is there a sort of percentage in your mind that you would say you get information back?
[00:13:00] Speaker C: The first question that has to be answered is does this cat have paranchymal disease or does this cat have airway disease? Right? Yeah. And so oftentimes we'll just take chest rads and we'll make the presumption that we can get fluid from their airways, which oftentimes, at least in my experience, we do. But for example, like in some cats with Parenchymal disease, the cellularity may not be as good.
[00:13:26] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:27] Speaker C: The other challenge with doing an endotracheal wash is now you're putting fluid sort of into the bigger airways and so that fluid can go down much quicker into the airways versus a bal where you can wedge yourself into a smaller airway.
I think the yield can be a little bit lower for endotracheal washes and I think that it depends on if the cat has paranchiamal or airway disease. But I think in my experience, the times that we get an answer, we oftentimes get just eosinophilia right on airway washes or we'll get neutrophilic like septic inflammation, right. If we think the cat is or whatnot. And so in my experience, we often tend to get an answer. But I also recognize that I see kind of the sickest of the sick and so I think their airways are much more compromised than a general practitioner might see. And so I think that's a little bit of bias there.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that might be the case, certainly. Thank you for those tips. And even as a specialist, I've done them in the past and even in the last two months, I can think of three different cases where the cats needed airway washes and the caregivers didn't want to. And it's always a dicey thing, right, whether you want to say, oh, no, you really need to do this, but in the back of your mind you're thinking, well, this comes with risks and I don't want to make it worse for the cat, but definitely from a diagnostic point of view, it's helpful.
[00:14:54] Speaker C: One thing is if you've never done a wash, it is a scary process and I understand that. I think the other thing too is sort of from the anesthesia perspective, like how comfortable are you with managing anesthesia in a compromised airway patient? I'm very lucky to have our anesthesiology team here and I rely on them heavily. Yeah, I recognize the fear and sort of the challenges in doing it. What I will say is that once you do it and obviously it depends on the patients that you're doing it, but once you do it a couple of times, I think it can be very easy to do with it.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Yeah, hopefully people will have that increased comfort. I certainly would prefer rather than just I'm getting in these situations where we work our way through the common differentials, try to treat and then work to steroids. And that kind of brings up my next question and you've alluded to in an eosinophilic airway, we could have parasitism and I think getting back to my comments about how asthma seems to be like the diagnosis de jour and people do an x ray and the cat's coughing and it's like, oh, it's asthma, right? And I've even had vin cases where they've not even done radiographs. How often do you think things like parasitism are getting missed? Like simple things like transtracheal migration of roundworm or lungworm heartworm associated respiratory disease? Do you think we're missing these a lot and jumping too much?
[00:16:24] Speaker C: I think it depends on where you are, what's the prevalence, but I think that they're probably not missed often, but they are missed. We tend to either deworm our patients or do baremands or whatnot beforehand. I don't think they're missed that often, but I do think that they are missed. And I think probably the biggest thing is that let's say you put a cat on steroids and it gets worse or it doesn't get better, that should prompt you to look for other things. So to that point, I don't think it's wrong to not do a full investigation into airway disease right off the bat. I don't think it is unreasonable to just trial steroids for a suspected asthma. I think you just have to be cognizant that you could be missing things.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Right.
And some things, like you said, if deworming is such a simple thing and I have had cats stop coughing after deworming them, it's certainly something that's worth trying empirically even before you move on to yeah, and heartworm is so hard to diagnose.
[00:17:30] Speaker C: Is it?
[00:17:31] Speaker B: So I find that one to be challenging. And I no longer live in an area where we have a lot of heartworm, but I was in southern Ontario where there was a lot and most of my patients were on prevention. But there's always that, you know, you can't really diagnose heartworm easily, and if it's heartworm associated respiratory disease, then you still also even if they respond to steroids, you probably have to monitor those patients for evidence of adult heartworm. Some months later. Do you guys do follow up with that? Or if you're not getting airway washes that confirm your diagnosis of asthma or chronic bronchitis?
[00:18:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it depends on the case. So oftentimes what we'll do is a heartworm antibody test and obviously that's like no test is 100%. We can consider things like echoes to see if they have heartworm disease. But oftentimes what we will do is assuming the cat truly has like if the cat has eosinophilic airway disease and we've ruled out heartworms with antibodies, we will obviously do follow up and just at least at a minimum owner communication and making sure that the cat is doing well.
[00:18:41] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:42] Speaker C: Some of the clinicians here will do follow up CTS or bronchoscopies to evaluate. Has the esinophilia gotten better?
Do we have objective measures for improvement? There could be room for doing additional diagnostics and obviously every owner or every case is going to be different, but exactly. At a minimum, I would say follow know in a week or two and making sure that the cat is doing well from just a clinical.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Thank you. So and if anybody's wondering, I would just say if you want to know more about heartworm associated respiratory disease and heartworm in cats, you can go to the American Heartworm Society page and they have really excellent information on cat heartworm for practitioners. So you can read about it there. Because I find sometimes when I'm on vin, it's something that I find myself explaining a lot as a differential for inflammatory airway.
So we've looked at a lot of the differentials for this and of course this article isn't really I mean, you guys really nicely delve into the differentials, but it really is about treatment. And you discuss steroid treatment and inhalation treatment, but also there's conversation about airway dilators and I just wanted to talk to you about those because they can be also misapplied in terms of use in cats. I certainly sometimes see them being prescribed a puffer for daily use. So I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about where they're most useful for cats and why it actually might be problematic to use them regularly.
[00:20:19] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah, I think bronchodilators I assume you're specifically talking about things like albuterol. Yeah, I think that this goes back a little bit to the bronchitis versus asthma question is, if they don't have airway collapse, then those medications probably aren't going to be super helpful.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:44] Speaker C: For empiric therapy, I don't think it's wrong to script out something like an albuterol inhaler sort of as needed, but there is a ton of information in human literature to support not using these daily. And the reason for that is because the albuterol is a mixture of both R and S enantiomers. And so the Snantiomer has been shown to cause inflammation and worsen outcomes.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:14] Speaker C: And so that's why people have developed leave albuterol.
But I think the most important thing to remember is that the albuterol is not a benign medication. And if you're using it more than maybe a couple of times in a week, either you have the wrong diagnosis or you need to focus more on things like steroids or whatnot. Because the Gina recommendations, which are the forgot exactly what they stand for, but they're the asthmatic guidelines for humans basically say, like, do not use albuterol if you can avoid it. It should be considered a rescue medication because the san antomer will cause inflammation and will cause hyperreactivity and what make it worse.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Yeah, people are finding they need to use it a lot. If their cat's still coughing a lot, then we're either misapplying treatment in terms of we need more steroid or we have the wrong diagnosis.
[00:22:09] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And I have seen those cases, and it's hard because the albuterol does make them feel better in the interim. And so then owners are convinced that, well, my cat needs albuterol and they definitely worsen outcomes in humans. And I expect the same to be true in cats. We don't have that evidence, but makes sense. I think we should be cautious about using bronchodilators like albuterol and then even things like sort of the longer acting beta two agonists or things like methyl Xanthenes, those all have side effects too. So things like the methyl Xanthines right. They can cause like tachycardia or they can cause excitation. They're not totally benign drugs by any means. And so I think we just need to be aware of the pros and cons of them and just be cautious about using those things. Because the other thing, too, is that things like albuterol do not control inflammation. All they do is cause bronchodilation.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:16] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. It's just a symptom of the asthma, for example. What we really need to focus on is getting the inflammation controlled, not necessarily the bronchodilation part of it. I think that's more of a secondary and important, but secondary manifestation of the disease.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: Right.
Thank you for clarifying that. Thinking about steroids, probably a lot of cats we were talking about earlier end up on oral steroids. And of course that delivers steroids to the entire system, whereas we have the option to deliver steroids directly to the lungs, which is probably more ideal. But there is a lot of pushback.
It can be really difficult to get caregivers interested in this. And I just saw a post the other day on social media about airway inhalation chambers for cats, and one person was like, are you crazy? My cat needs this right now. This is going to take months to train my cat to use the puffer. I'll just call them puffers chambers. And I know with our cat friendly guidelines that we recently published, we talked a lot about cooperative care, and that's something that you guys are sort of addressing in here. Have you ever had to train a cat to use a puffer or chamber? Sorry. With the mask.
[00:24:28] Speaker C: I have not. I have been involved with owners that do, but I have not personally had to do it.
I have practiced on my own cat. But he hasn't needed it.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: No, but it's a good start just in case.
[00:24:43] Speaker C: Right.
So the answer to your question is no, I have not had to do that.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: I have not either. But I think if you look into the article, there's a really good section on training the cat and there's a really good video which you refer to, which I send all my clients to, which is Dr. Sarah Ellis, who's a behaviorist training her own cat to use the mask. And it does it's a progressive thing where she starts with just clicker training and then having the puffer chamber nearby in the chamber so that the cat kind of gets used to them being around and gradually progressing to having the cat put their head in a plant pot that's rather large to get a treat and clicker.
I think it can be quite extensive in time, but certainly worth a while. And as you say, if people are clicker training or working with their cats at home, that's just something you could start working towards should they ever need it.
What's your sense of how long it would take to train a cat if you were just cold turkey starting to train them?
[00:25:43] Speaker C: My conversations with owner is typically about a month. Okay. Is how long I give. So I think Dr. Renaro may do a little bit less time, but my conversations with caregivers tends to be somewhere in the range of it's going to take time. Let's try prednisolone for a month and then slowly transition over that. Because I think the worst thing to do is to accelerate or try to accelerate it and force a cat to do inhalation when it doesn't want it and then you've totally broken the trust and whatnot I typically give them a couple of weeks to a month for that slow progression.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And it seems like it just takes patience, which yeah, I think and you've said in the article, it says inhaled glucocorticoids are not immediate acting, so it's recommended to overlap treatment with oral glucocorticoids anyway. So as you say, that kind of gives them time, which is what I've been doing with our caregivers as well with our asthmatic cats, is starting the oral steroids and then having them learn the training.
And hopefully as we get the message of cat friendly and cooperative care training, even for getting into carriers out, people are working more with their cats at home, even with nail trims and the like. This will become easier for people if they're already working for training.
That's really an important part of it. There were some conversations around trying to find my note where I wrote it down about we're talking about inhalational therapy. And one thing that I'm not very familiar with is nebulizers. So I don't know if it's because they're not as readily accessible or well promoted or just that we get what we need for asthma out of the inhalational therapy through the inhalers and masks. Do you want to tell us a little bit about nebulizers and what kinds are available and what role they would have for us in practice.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: There are a couple of different kinds of nebulizers and they all have just like, everything, I guess, pros and cons. Probably the most common one that would be used for vet med would be the jet nebulizers. They tend to be the cheapest nebulizers.
But what nebulizers do is they basically aerosolize whatever medication you're doing versus something like a puffer, like you described it's already aerosolized and you're just delivering it. So a nebulizer changes the composition of whatever you're giving. So jet nebulizers can be used. They tend to be a little bit loud, which obviously has its downsides with a cat, but they tend to be relatively cheap. Contrast that with something like mesh nebulizers, which sort of aerosolize things through a mesh, and those tend to be more expensive but are much more quieter. And there are studies looking at different types of nebulizers, and there's also like a pzoelectric, which is kind of in the middle, if you will.
There are no studies really comparing the efficacy of these things in cats, and there's a surprisingly little amount of information comparing the efficacy of them in humans.
[00:29:09] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:29:10] Speaker C: What I think is important to know is that different nebulizers can or can't be used with certain medications just because of the way they nebulize things. So if you do decide to get a nebulizer, you have to make sure that whatever drug you're nebulizing can be used with that type of nebulizer. I think that nebulizers could represent a really good way to aerosolize medications. And one of the things that I think potentially could be in the future is trying to nebulize molecules that are even smaller to try and get down to the lower airways. Because if you think about a cat, I mean, their airways are already so small. And most of what is available there are obviously some veterinary products, but not uncommonly. People will buy human nebulizers or whatnot which will aerosolize the medications for human airways.
I think that there are going to be some smaller molecules that will be available, but as far as I'm aware, they're not currently available for vet med. And the other big problem here is price. And so nebulizers, you have to buy the machine. It can be loud, it can be expensive.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:26] Speaker C: But I think nebulizers potentially can offer a very good way for us to get medications to our patients. But I think we're really just in the infancy of inhalational medicine to begin with. But I think that they're promising. I think that they're promising.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Thank you, Deb. Yeah, I hadn't really given it any thought before, so I was reading the article, I went, Wait a second. I hadn't really thought about nebulizers before because we do focus so much with asthma and inhalational therapy with the chambers.
[00:30:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I think the chambers are relatively easy and they're relatively cheap compared to the nebulizers. Whether they're better or worse than nebulizers, I think we need to. Figure that out.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And it may be just like you said, also what applications each has, at least for now, we're doing well with what we have.
[00:31:19] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: I just really want to thank you for taking the time to chat with me today. I have at least just one or two more questions. First, just a practical question. How was your experience with working with the editorial team journal of Feline Medicine Surgery prepping this article, I know it can be a lot of back and forth with reviews and different edits.
[00:31:42] Speaker C: You all have been great.
[00:31:44] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:31:48] Speaker C: Yeah, you've been very great. I think you've been very communicative, very supportive, and I have no complaints. I have no complaints.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Well, we like to hear that. We don't necessarily have to hear that. And I'm new at this. I've just been working as a co editor since January, and I'm not fully fledged yet. Dr. Sherkin is going to be retiring early next year, so this has been a new experience for me, too. And I've also found the editorial team to be just fantastic and very patient and very helpful.
[00:32:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I've been very happy and very impressed.
[00:32:24] Speaker B: Thank you very much again for the article and for joining me today. Again. We are talking about Breathe Easy inhalational Therapy for Feline Inflammatory Airway Disease by Dr. Sparschelon and Dr. ReNero.
Again, thanks very much and was really excited to hear about your cat named Taco. And I think the last question I probably have for you is, does he have a Halloween costume that is a Taco? Because you need cats wearing taco costumes.
[00:32:52] Speaker C: So I have not bought him anything.
I bought him a harness to try and take him outside. He has he I don't have another cat, and I want him to explore the world, but obviously I need to be cautious.
[00:33:10] Speaker B: Not that we condone dressing up cats, because that's not really recommended anyway, but you do see funny pictures of cats dressed as Taco. And I have to admit that's what I thought of immediately, especially an F-I-V cat. We don't want to stress.
[00:33:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I want to get him used to the harness first, and then once he gets used to that and I can take him outside, then I might buy him a costume. But he does where you put the harness on and he just, like, falls over. Yeah, falls over. And he's ataxic you need some more.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: Cooperative care training going on there for some exactly.
[00:33:45] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Great. Well, thank you again very much. Enjoyed speaking with you today.
[00:33:51] Speaker C: Yeah, thank you. Thank you. This is great.
[00:33:54] Speaker B: Thanks.
[00:33:55] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to this episode of All Cats Considered. We hope you enjoyed this interview. For more information on the topics discussed during the episode, please be sure to head over to Catvets.com and explore the links in the podcast description. And please be sure to subscribe to this podcast and your platform of choice so that you don't miss any episodes as we release them. Have thoughts or ideas about the interview you heard today? Share them with us. Leave us a comment on our Facebook page or shoot us an email at
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